WhiteRhino + Feeding Line Test | LedCherryBerry

[g22]

@LedCherryBerry

Hi man iam not goed to identyfi  deficient but your leaf is not green enought so i think like you N your bioheaven is not a grow fert so never.

fishmix or fish emultion, vis emultie is for grow bio and  very  goed for spray on  leaf and i think for the 3 first week of blooming cant be bad more N i read that nettle thea can be very good to or ad some biogrow jan.gh say 1g /l soil biogrow  for blooming and if you use bioproduct its stupid to ad chemical product 

[LedCherryBerry]

Point is, i already added 1g biogrow when the bloom phase started, along with the biobloom. 
As of now, it affected only 5 leaves, which were some of the oldest ones. But i don't want it to spread to other zones, such as bud sites.
Also, N deficiency is heavily impacting on yield and i certainly don't want a miserable harvest.
IF i add some more biogrow now, it means that it'll be consumed at the end of week10 BLOOM. Too late.
I need to solve the issue now, and i need to solve it gradually. Meaning i need to learn a way to add N without fucking up all the other nutrients.
I'll stop adding N when the plant doesn't require it anymore.

[Cannabissapean]

11 hours ago, LedCherryBerry said:

Now, my question is: since powder feedings are supposed to last 8 weeks, how do i temporarily increase N till it's not needed anymore?
Can i feed her a very light mix of liquid grow fertilizer - biobizz one - like 0.5ML/LT? Or will it cause even more instability?
Asking @Cannabissapean 'n @jan.gh, or any other member that knows a bit on the topic.
I don't know if mixing powders AND liquid nutes is a good thing. Better to ask before doing it.

 

 

@LedCherryBerry, you are right to question regarding mixing nutes, or better said, "alternating" nutes. 

 

(Obviously mixing nutes together and then feeding is like committing Cannabis suicide - similar to a person throwing various uppers, downers, Prozac, LSD, Heroine, and Bath Salts into a Gin and Tonic, slug it down, and then chase it with a beer.   You aren't coming back.) 

 

It is often advised by virtually all nutrient manufacturers NOT to mix or alternate with other manufacturer's products, and also not to feed powder-feedings back-to-back or alternatively with liquid-feedings.  But that's because they are trying to help you achieve maximum performance with KNOWN variables.  Since they are promoting only their product, they have used only their product in order to achieve that qualification, and then they do their best to provide you with Tables to help you approach what they believe is the best application for the species plant.

 

That is not to say that you won't be successful if you perform alternative feeding.  But the results can be unpredictable, and the interactions among the various chemicals in the growing medium can be unpredictable.  One must accept that if one begins alternative feeding or mixing, you're stepping into the unknown, and the results of the experiment are your own responsibility.

 

I have alternated feeding in the past usually with success, sometimes with problems.  My successes usually occurred when I was dosing WELL below the manufacturer's recommended dosages.  My problems usually occurred when I was dosing at or near the manufacturer's recommended dosages.  

[g22]

@Cannabissapean

Spray fish emultion on the leaf can be bad ?they are other bio product special for spray for deficient given fert on the leaf acting fast .

[LedCherryBerry]

Ok, i get the idea. It's like installing Mac OSX on a windows pc. It's possible, it can work, but can also bring many issues.
I don't want to get through that.

I don't have fishmix or whatever, and if i ordered it today, i'd receive it in a week. A bit late.

I got the problem by using a third of GHSC's Recommended dosage. Right now the plant is sustaining herself with 1.5g biogrow (0.5g week 4-12, 1g week 8-16).
Since Highlander was looking small, i decided to use less not to burn her. It seems i had the wrong ph, and that resulted in a lockout that didn't express her.. "true feelings".

So.. What should i do?
Since mixing isn't a thing i want to do, can i like, mix 1g biogrow in water when feeding next time?
I know GHS literally says "don't mix with water", but i have no other solution to the issue. 
Adding more biogrow to the soil could result in burns, and it'd be depleted in too much time.

Feeding is tomorrow. I need a solution quickly.

Last question is, does the enhancer contain a bit of N?
Maybe i can solve the issue with that. I am currently feeding half the enhancer dosage, 0.5gxLT every 2 weeks.

[g22]

@LedCherryBerry

For my opinion the alf dosage is goed when you veg and adjust to full dosage if needed but for blooming i think the normal dosage of biobloom is recomanded with a littel sup of biogroow like jan.gh. say to you.

i think in blooming with the big devlopment of the plant she needs to eat well to grow well

[LedCherryBerry]

So uhm, upon further research on the matter, this came up:

You may need more nitrogen (N) if...
Bottom leaves are wilting, turning yellow, and falling off on their own
 

You may need less nitrogen (N) if...
Plant is in the flowering stage

• Leaves are dark green
• Leaf tips are clawed
  
  Now, i've always had dark green leaves since the beginning. 
  I'm not seeing clawing until the leaf starts yellowing.
  I do have spots, though, that i thought i could explain with PH issues as they didn't look at any deficiency.
  But the leaves are indeed turning yellow, wilt, and fall of on their own.
  
  The plant is showing both signs from a deficiency AND a toxicity. 
  Any thought or advice?

[LedCherryBerry]

Ok. I ruled out a N deficiency.
It's a Toxicity, not even an excess. The issue is spreading rapidly.

Why do i say this? Well..
Upon taking a deep look at the plant, with all the symptoms by my side, i concluded it's a toxicity because:
- Leaves are dark green, have always been since the beginning
- Leaves have their tip clawed, all of them, some slightly, some others more
- Some random leaves yellowed, others showed signs of burning but without yellowing. Now, the burned ones are starting to yellow, and brown
- Growth has always been kind of stunted. But i figured out now why.

The issue is NOT the feeding line, as i'm using less than a third of biogrow recommended, and 2/3 biobloom recommended.
The issue is the BioBizz All Mix media. It's simply too "hot".
If i go to see my previous journal, done with bagseed, i can now clearly see the same issue on Rebecca, and i clearly don't want to see such things happen to Highlander.
Rebecca, though, had much more clawing and yellowing, than burning spots.

So, this is my analysis of my situation:
I planted Highlander in a "too hot media", and its growth has been stunted since, because of too much N. Both the plants showed dark green leaves, and i mistook them for "genetics". When i "LSTed" her, she had a way to use the rich presence of N both from the biogrow AND the already present N in the media, so instead of wilting, she exploded in growth. Upon switching in blooming, i added even MORE N, upon @jan.gh's advice, but it's not his fault as he didn't know how hot my media was, and neither did I (until now). I've taken a look at my log, and i added 0.5GxSoil LT (9G in 18L) of biogrow, PLUS 36G biobloom that actually cointain N. 
Now, that i'm raising PH, the plant is showing the toxicity, and it's doing it superfast.

I need to know: will i be able to flush the powder nutrients away? 
I will re-add them, but in a very light dosage, excluding the biogrow. 
This will mess up seriously my schedule, but it's the only way to save the plant from inevitable nutrient death.

[g22]

@LedCherryBerry

i was thinkin you use a light mix, all mix is alredy full of nute but normaly if you have to much nute the tipe of the leaf must be burn

[Cannabissapean]

WOW, didn't know you were having such serious problems.  Yeah, it sounds like a flush is in order.  What I do is I take the potted plant to the bathtub, and I use the showerhead on a flexible hose to gently spray the soil for about 2 minutes.  I repeat after 15 minutes, Then I repeat again after another 15 minutes.  While spraying, if your tub is white, you can see the brownish/yellowish salts and soil chemicals draining away.  Usually after the third spraying, it is running pretty clear.  Then I let the pot sit in the tub to drain for a half hour or so.  Then I return the plant to the lighted tent.  After about 4 or 5 days, I resume feeding at about half to 3/4 strength for the first feeding, then full strength after another 2 or 3 days.

[g22]

@Cannabissapean

if you take your plant to the shower to flush the medium you gone kill all good bacteri and fungy with the chlorine ? or is better to flush and if the soil is hot is leaf must be more burn and burn from the tipe not?

 

 

Editted late response from Cannabissapean (20 June 2018):

Good thinking, g22.  If your city water contains lots of chlorine, that would not be so good for the micro-organisms in the soil.  Thankfully where I am, we don't have that much chlorine in the city water.  But if the plant is sufferring the effects of a destructive toxicity, then correcting the toxicity is more important than a temporary interruption in micro-organism activity.  The micro-organisms can be restored again when you resume feeding the plant by adding a couple tablespoons of unsulfured molasses to the feeding solution.  The sugars will restart the micro-organisms again.  Not honey, honey is also anti-bacterial.

 

Another alternative is to flush with collected rainwater.  Rainwater has no chlorine, but it also usually has fewer useful minerals such as calcium.  Even rainwater should be tested for pH, because in some areas especially around cities, there could be acid-rain caused by the pollution.  For cannabis, acid rain may not be so bad if it results in a proper pH, but if the pH is too low, then simply adjust the pH, and be prepared to supplement some Cal-Mag later if lack of calcium becomes an issue.

 

If you are really lucky and you are able to collect rainwater during a time when a nearby desert is generating dust-storms that move into the weather-patterns of your area, then your rainwater will contain a number of micro-nutrients and various minerals.

[LedCherryBerry]

13 hours ago, Cannabissapean said:

WOW, didn't know you were having such serious problems.  Yeah, it sounds like a flush is in order.  What I do is I take the potted plant to the bathtub, and I use the showerhead on a flexible hose to gently spray the soil for about 2 minutes.  I repeat after 15 minutes, Then I repeat again after another 15 minutes.  While spraying, if your tub is white, you can see the brownish/yellowish salts and soil chemicals draining away.  Usually after the third spraying, it is running pretty clear.  Then I let the pot sit in the tub to drain for a half hour or so.  Then I return the plant to the lighted tent.  After about 4 or 5 days, I resume feeding at about half to 3/4 strength for the first feeding, then full strength after another 2 or 3 days.

Point is, BioGrow feeding line is time-release.
As far as i'm reading and aknowledging online, time-release nutrients are really, really a pain in the arse to flush.
From what i read, each time you water, you activate nutrients.
This means (in my head) that if i flush (aka excessively watering) i will activate FAR MORE nutrients than i might want to, resulting in clogging and a serious burn.
Is what i'm saying true, or a complete load of bollocks?
Either way, since powder feedings are pretty fucking hard to flush away, I have decided that instead watering her each 3-4 days, i'll do it each 2-3, but decreasing the amount of water i feed her. In this way, i should activate less nutrients, but giving the plant a more frequent uptake, aka balancing the issue.
It's all hypothetical, and i require more advice.
Please tell me if i'm wrong or not, i'll be watering in a few hours.

Sorry if i took so long answering, GHS didn't show me ANY notification of yours.

Today i'll NOT feed her the enhancer. Doesn't seem a good idea RN.

[LedCherryBerry]

13 hours ago, g22 said:

@Cannabissapean

if you take your plant to the shower to flush the medium you gone kill all good bacteri and fungy with the chlorine ? or is better to flush and if the soil is hot is leaf must be more burn and burn from the tipe not?

That's another issue i must address, if i decide to flush.
My water is normally abundant in limestone, and i don't know about chlorine but it doesn't seem to have such high percentages, as i've let water evaporate a bit just a couple times overall.
Last issue with flushing would be i'd need to adjust my whole house reservoir PH to 6.5 from 6.8, but... It's a bit costy. And even if i could, i wouldn't be able to, as i'm connected to an aqueduct. 
 

[Jose.gh]

Hello!!

She looks great, you can tell she's very spoiled ) Now you're just on the 14th day of flowering, the plants grow a lot during the first two weeks of flowering. It's normal to have some small deficiency, nothing alarming.

Sometimes, we do a mountain of little things, hehe, because we always want everything to go perfect. I simply recommend against going crazy with a little discoloration.

I look forward to seeing how the performance is, greetings!

[g22]

@LedCherryBerry

Hi ledberry if water more like 5l p plant i think you lower the ec in your soil when i use the batmix is writt on the bag first water a lot the soil before planting so the ec in it is lower i ask myself if the deficient is no due that you adjust your ph i stop to adjust ph when i transplant my plant maybe the acid of lemon was acting like hyroshima in my soil but iam not shure but my leaf stop to yelowing after and chlorine act like hyroshima on bacto 

[LedCherryBerry]

1 hour ago, Jose.gh said:

Hello!!

She looks great, you can tell she's very spoiled ) Now you're just on the 14th day of flowering, the plants grow a lot during the first two weeks of flowering. It's normal to have some small deficiency, nothing alarming.

Sometimes, we do a mountain of little things, hehe, because we always want everything to go perfect. I simply recommend against going crazy with a little discoloration.

I look forward to seeing how the performance is, greetings!

@Jose.gh I'll post pictures of the various issues present on the plant tonight, or tomorrow, as today is a really intensive day, both at work and in my private life.
I do too, partially, think that i should keep going with my schedule, regardless of symptoms, but last grow didn't end too well for my likings. 

I've watered Highlander right now with less water, no enhancer. I'll see in the next 2-3 days how the issue develops, and then i'll decide if i should resume enhancer feeding or not. Right now i'm of the idea that if i'm getting a toxicity, soil is already pretty enhanced. 

Do you guys have an idea where to get the BioBizz Soil microelements chart? I can't find it anywhere, but it's possible i'm looking in the wrong places.

@g22 Again, i don't have batmix, and even if i ordered it today, it would come in a week or 2. Too late for that.
I've also been told NOT to use any organic food as fertilizers. They deplete in too little time, and can cause rot and mold, or pests. 
I was looking for such solutions when i had bagseed, cause i needed a superfast solution for a superbig problem. Needless to say, there is none. If you fuck up in the beginning, you... fucked up. Nothing more to add.

I'll see you all tonight, possibly, hopefully.
Peace!

[LedCherryBerry]

@jan.gh Good evening, Sir.

I too think i reacted too scared for a perfectly fixable situation.
Now that i think about it, i have had this issue before, in my very first grow (not journaled), but in a lighter and different "mood". N toxicity (realizing it now) caused by strong PH issues (didn't have a pen back then. Didn't even know what PH was. Booo me).

I too am convinced it wont flush out the BioGrow/Bloom. 
I'm not going to perform a flush right now because it's a delicate phase. I should've done it 2 weeks ago, before switching to 12-12. Lesson learned the hard way.
Yes, i let the soil dry as much as possible before watering again. Luckily, ventilation in the tent is perfect, and the girl is dry at least 1 day before watering, every time.


Anyway, here's the update with pics.
Today i fed her with 6.5PH water only, no Enhancer, and instead of 4LTs, i gave her 3LTs.
Runoff PH as always in range.
Feeding happened at 1Pm, couldn't do it in the morning, had no time to. 
After 5 hours, the plant is in a state i never seen before. Clawing has almost disappeared (what the fuck?!), but some of the bottom leaves are still getting affected by the N issue. 

Well, i should let the pics speak for themselves.
Highlander Canopy:

 

 

Highlander weird "perk up":

 

 

This is abnormal, to me. Never seen it happen, figures on every cola present on the plant. 
It doesn't look at all like heat stress, and temperatures are lower than the other days, staying in a 19°-26°. RH ranges 37-44%.
Any idea what the heck is causing this? Or maybe it's a good thing and i'm again over-reacting?

Highlander's N supposed Toxicity:

 

Took a pic of a leaf that just started developing the issue. Spots on edges appear, overall leaf starts to yellow. Beneath this leaf, out of focus, an affected leaf in an advanced state. 

Highlander's Early Flowers:

 

Ain't it beautiful, all of this?

I hope to see better development of the issue in the coming days. 
Meanwhile, some thought on the weird perk-up?

I'll leave y'all with a stoney-thought that came up in my mind: 
What if, when we die, we wake up in an alien body, holding an alien bong, sitting with a bunch of aliens and they ask you: "How was it?"


Peace!

 

Editted late by Cannabissapean:

 

(holding an alien bong, sitting with a bunch of aliens and they ask you: "How was it?")

 

Fucking LOL!!!!!!!   That's awesome!!!   That's some great stuff, man...

[LedCherryBerry]

I've researched again a bit on the topic of the perk-up.
One possible reason is that the plants are receiving too much light.
Other reasong could be high temps (not the case) or low humidity (not the case).

I'll increase more the height of the rack, bringing it to 36cm instead of 33, and see if that changes something.
If it doesn't, i'll turn off a couple lights. Could be that the plant isn't receiving enough co2 from the enviroment to sustain my light.
Other reasons, i don't know.

Peace!

[LedCherryBerry]

I've increased the rack height to 40cm, instead of 33. 

From another site:
 

"When the whole plant is being overworked, it starts showing signs of what appear to be nutrient deficiencies. At this point, it might seem like a good idea to increase the nutrients you're giving your plants.

Unfortunately adding more nutrients at this point can do more harm than good, often leading to even worse nutrient burn. Because the true problem is the light being too close, upping the nutrients isn't going to help, even though it may look like the plant is suffering from nutrient deficiencies.

These overworked leaves began dying early! They showed signs of both nutrient burn and nutrient deficiencies at the same time, though the true problem was the distance of the grow light. Giving the plant more nutrients at this point would only make things worse."

 

What if my light is actually just too close, and the plant showed signs since it stretched?
It's another possibility. 
I'll see in the coming days how it evolves. 


Peace

[Jose.gh]

Sure, that's a good idea. Remember that even though everything is fine now, the affected leaves never recover, we must look at the new leaves.

No, I don't know where to find this information about Biobizz, have you sent an email to the manufacturer?

 

Remember, potassium also yellows the leaves and is super normal, having potassium deficiency in flowering.
 

[LedCherryBerry]

As always, my friend, it's a guessing game. Winner is who guesses right.
I think i had the signs of both light stress and Nitrogen issues. Afterall, space is little, light is a lot, and i fed her a third of the dosage.
If highlander fucks up, and all goes wrong, i'm the one to blame.

Nah, didn't send an email to them. I'm pretty pissed on my own for them not to include the chart on the product. I mean, what do you do when you eat milk? You read milk's numbers and shit! It's normal for us! hehehehehe..

I'll see in these days how it evolves. Surely keeping a close eye, but overall there's not much i can do other than raising the lights.
Thanks for the support. 

[LedCherryBerry]

3 hours ago, jan.gh said:

The perking up or praying is always a good sign in my opinion. The plants look very healthy from the top. If the bottom leaves are still affected, I would personally remove them. ( I don't like yellow leaves on my plants at that stage) but it's like Jose said, they will not recover and become bright green once they are yellow. 

 

Less is more when growing, always keep that in mind. Less actions also means less mistakes can be made ;-) 

 

 

Indeed, i am still deciding wether to flush or not. With the flush, i'm aiming to remove any substance still present in the allmix media, and not to remove ghsc powders as it's useless to even try. But i am also aware that flushing is putting on the plant extra stress, so if i do it, i'd better be extra-careful.

All i'm reading online about that "praying" is that it's the light rack too close to canopy. 
I don't know if it's true or not, but i don't want to risk anything, so i moved up the rack just for safety measures. Stretch should almost be done either way.

I prefer not to pluck them off. Again, it's adding just a little stress. When they fall on their own, they were ready to. At least, that's my opinion, but nothing changes the fact that some leaves are falling.
Of course, with the change of light supplied (18-6 to 12-12) plant should adapt to it and think seasons might be shortening, so i guess some leaves falling are normal.

[LedCherryBerry]

Little update.

Highlander's clawing is slowly disappearing. Leaves stopped yellowing and falling, it's been 24hrs since the last one.
Also, the perk-up/praising the sun god stopped. 
The only change done to the setup is the increased rack height.

Now it's early to make claims, but my hypothesis is this one:
Having set the rack at 32cm, plant was getting too much light. To balance the issue, she started sucking up the nitrogen from the lower leaves to sustain the canopy.
The sucked-up nitrogen went in the already nitrogen-rich upper leaves, that started to show signs of toxicity. Plant's last resort was perking up, trying to say "yo, please, sun is burning bruh". By bringing the rack back up, the N need was less and all went back to normal.

Trichomes are starting to develop around and on flowers. Haven't dared touching them, smell should come along in a couple of weeks.
Stretch seems to be done, at least most of it. Got quite lucky with it, as i still got 15cm left for the rack (light source to canopy distance is 41cm, can bring it to 56).
If i'm ever going to do another grow in the future, i should consider buying a better led light. One light. 8 sockets are quite a fucking pain to handle. Boo me, again.

Speaking of lights, has anybody here had experience with COB LEDs? I'm thinking of buying one to give a much full-er spectrum to the plant, not just blues and reds.
Is COB worth the price? Any opinions about it?


Peace!

[g22]

In the shop i go they tell me if i buy a led i must buy a cob he tell me heven if i dont buy to him .

for the moment i stay with hps i try to buy a dubble bulb cool cap in the future .

in the shop   they have the MIGRO cob  looks goed i see on an other shop the FLUENCE the fluence look great 😁 all those light cost a lot of money 

[LedCherryBerry]

On 20/3/2018 at 8:53 PM, Cannabissapean said:

WOW, didn't know you were having such serious problems.  Yeah, it sounds like a flush is in order.  What I do is I take the potted plant to the bathtub, and I use the showerhead on a flexible hose to gently spray the soil for about 2 minutes.  I repeat after 15 minutes, Then I repeat again after another 15 minutes.  While spraying, if your tub is white, you can see the brownish/yellowish salts and soil chemicals draining away.  Usually after the third spraying, it is running pretty clear.  Then I let the pot sit in the tub to drain for a half hour or so.  Then I return the plant to the lighted tent.  After about 4 or 5 days, I resume feeding at about half to 3/4 strength for the first feeding, then full strength after another 2 or 3 days.

I've performed the flush today, as yellowing came back, even though not as hard as before. Anyway, i am tired to see it coming back, so i did it.
As you said, third runoff was way lighter than the first, so i figured the media was almost clear of that.
Another thing i added is washing the cloth-pot itself. Didn't know there was so much build up on the sides. This is important because cloth when wet retains a lot of water, and if that water is full of nutrients then the external roots risk burn (my guess).
Anyway, plant clawed for a couple of hours (overwatering), and now she's fine. I've got a fan back down pointed at the pot, so that it dries a bit faster.
I'll resume feeding next week, at half the strenght, and then back to schedule.

Let's see how Highlander recovers.