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Dutch Passion's thought on LED & how they affect uptake of nutients


lamsbread
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Nice info Toaor :)

I always enjoy your grows and it is great to see them growing under LED's.

Interesting observation on flowering time but unless the grower is desperate for a smoke,I guess this is not a problem, as LED's have a lower power usage than HID.

Thanks for the link to the LED panel using 5Watt chips, though i didn't see a price.

I recently found out that CREE are making chips with 24 LED's on them with a footprint of just 12mm.I started a thread about them and the future of LED's.Romeu9 also posted about a new mega LED light from Sunpulse,this has to be seen!.Also in the thread other lights came up, such as the "sunpulse Nano" a range of Ceramic Metal Halides (CMH).Which will be available in sizes from 20W to 100w. Heres the link -

You may be interested in a thread started by Nutes - His question was - Who makes the best LED lights - link here -

Peace bro

Lams

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  • 8 months later...

Actually, I got a question for you Lams.

Is it true that if you use LED's you should increase the temperature of your grow room from 70-75F to 80-85F? From what I have read and heard, The plants photosynthesize faster in warmer climates, so wouldn't the plants intake and uptake be effected by temperature differentiation?.

I heard somewhere that since your average plant canopy is 80F, while the room may be 75F. Shouldn't you try to replicate that by increasing the temperature of your LED setup to match those temps of 80F canopy?

peace and pot

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yes I do agree Tommy , you threw me a bit of an imperial curve ball there because i do everything in oC, around the 78 - 80 oF is a nice comfortable figure.

LED light aren't completely cold they have large heat sinks which are cooled by fans, so a little heat comes from those rather than a lot from a bulb, this means any heat produced doesn't go directly on to the plants as a bulb would.

The fans in the LED also help move air in the room, only when it gets really cold will i add aditional heat.

Currently i have a large heated propagator tray in my room and this adds a bit of warmth to the bottom of my pots whilst they are still small as well as adding a bit of warmth in the room.

If temps get really low i will add a small a 30cm 60W Tub heater and use a thermostat wall socket.

I also use a fan speed controller so i can regulate air extraction.

When i start my world cup grow using powder feed i will be interested if i need to add any cal/mag to the system as discussed by dutchtony.

Everything is very exciting right now, i have my LED which is currently over my dutch passion Twilight in soil, following that i will change to hydro and grow my cup entry , which is Money Maker a nice kush variety courtesy of Greenhouse seed company, using powder feed.

I am also looking forward to the autoflower cup.

I am looking to purchas a second LED for the world cup so will be using 400W,I can't wait :)

Peace bro

Lams

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Sounds like a great plan big guy, and thanks for the quick reply. The new LED should be a fantastic upgrade to your grow. (don't you love buying new gear?)

And I can't wait to see your entry for the cup, I'm happy to be "competing" with you guys. Also I'm very happy with the fact that for once we'll be seeing some completed journals of the strains I'm/we're growing.

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sure will be nice to get some more kit, I still got stuff to get for the hydro too. :D but hey what christmas for if you can't treat your self as well.

we have lots of complete grows in the forums , have you checked out the test grow section?

I do agree however it nice to see some of these previuosly unrealeased to the public strains being grown to fruition.

I'm afraid that some competion entrants have already wavered and fallen by the wayside, but this said, most of the journals for the world cup though are looking very nice and there is lots of inovitive and nicely pressented grows.

Will be great to follow your grow and i am looking forward to participating aswell :D

Peace bro

Lams

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Im doin my research in Led corner for a long time...a friend of mine brought me on that train. he cheanged from 600 hps to 6 spectre leds totaly runnin 440 watts of power. those babys are awesome and i know theres a lot of more spectres on the market but theese 6 are working fine what i saw and i decided t change..... found a guy in the us which builds them in the 6th generation and hes quite cheap im getting my 300 w panel for 250$ that price made me think of a change...i always said to my pal if they go under 300 euros and i mean 250$ bit more than 200 euros i will change to leds. i will do a fully grow report when i start with that panel and fingers crossed i get some gd results but i would wonder if not by what ive saw.

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nice info URBANNINJA :)

Can you link us to his web site , i love to check them out.

Any chance your mate would like to join strain hunters or you could upload a picture of his grow using LED?

Keep us posted when you get yours I'll be sure to follow your journal.

If your mate has any tips or tricks when it comes to using LED be sure to pass them on here.

Peace bro

Lams

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no probs i''l give you a couple of links. as your from across the pond i'll Link you to usa companies.

http://www.advancedledlights.com/ - Advanced LED Lights got some good rep, check the DS (Diamond Series) range & DS XML look very nice, i almost bought this, only reason i didn't was postage from the states, plus tax and import duty. 11 wavelengths. I think i already posted a video of the 200w DS light in answer to another post i spoke to you in , if not let me know.

http://www.357magled.com/ Magled been doing the Biz for quite some time look at the magnum 357+ & the new magnum plus 2,both lights 8 wavelengths plus white

http://www.gothamhydroponics.com/ i looked at the Lighthouse Hydro Blackstar Chrome 5 wavelengths plus white

This next one is a UK company but the link will be for the "Budzilla" a new aproach to LED lights, using intergrated LED array chips.

The chips come with 50 LED diodes per array and each light has 4 of these chips.

The lights are available from 200W to 480W. These lights are currently being tested by BusyBeeLeds and will be called the "yellow Jacket by them.

This is a reseller light, the OEM (Original Equipment Manufactuer) is a company called VANQ and base in China (Don't worry most LED are made there and these are nice lights).

I believe that intergrated arrays will be the future of LED lights or at the least the next step in thier progression.

http://www.greenligh..._grow_light.htm these light are available now, there is some nice diagrams and a bit to read.

http://busybeeleds.c...ight-300w-wasp/ This is the BusyBee LEDs website, I have sent you straight to the Wasp LED light, i like the look of this one and they use nice LED "Bridgelux" and 5W LEDs. this is also the company that will end up selling the budzilla though will be called the yellow jacket. It is still in testing but i'm sure it will pass.

http://www.hydrogrowled.com/# finally if you got deep pockets hydrogrow, they started the next gen Xlens lights and have had good results, though i feel have rested on thier laurels and not kept up with the latest developements. Price have been high from the start when they were the market leaders, now they are offering 10% off all thier lights , i feel this is too little too late.

Hope this helps Tommy

Take care my friend

Peace bro

Lams

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Lams think no chance cause he is that paranoid type of guy he even aint uses a handy lol prices aint counting not at all times everthing thats expensive must be gd sme just want to get on that money train and sell leds. lambs i found thagt guy on ebay and he gave me lot of information bout his panels and aint prayin that a 90w ufo can replace ur 400 hps he is on the ground and said what exactly i need to cover u 400-600watts of hps power. he even told me to better get the newer generation he just realeased cause the lenses are more effective and the panels are on the same prices so he wouldnt make some extra money on sellin the new ones. the new generation is 260w and i will order this panel and then test grow :D the ones u got lams are pretty gd too they were my first thought before i get on the hunt for infos and they are quite the best what u can get...simmilar to the ones i get bro. Peace Ninjah

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URBANNINJA when you use the word "handy" you mean mobile/cell Phone, am i right i am thinking this a popular term used in Germany?

I don't blame him, security is a big issue, not getting caught is number one thing for me too.

I have GSM surviellance/ burgular alarm camera which sends me a message & pictures if anyone breaks in, plus I have a GSM solenoid lock on my door to my room.

For these GSM devices i have a separate micro mobile phone dedicated for these devices, If this phone recieves a calls i can see who is in my place and can remove the sim, then there is no trace to my location by GSM trianglation, for example if the cops break in. There is also no call log to other people i know because it is only for security.

Did you have the ebay link for the LED lights?

Peace bro

Lams

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ATP is the molecule in charge of transporting and storing energy in biological systems.

When it doesn´t have any energy its in AMP form (adenosin monophosfate) linkes a phospahte to become ADP (adenosin diphospahte) and finally ATP (adenosin triphosphate)

When ATP is finally formed it is usually linked to a magnesium atom in mg2+ form. (this is usally left out of biology books cant understand why) MG is also linked to all DNA RNA producing enzymes.

So my conclusion is this:

When a plant receives "better" light or a more apropiate spectrum the choloroplast work better and more efficiently so a Mg deff shouldn´t occur. Less cloroplast are needed to produce the same energy. On the other hand the plant is probably producing an excess (compared with regular light) of ATP. This is where I think the Mg deffeciency arrises.

That said. I could be wrong.

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Glad my matey does light technican at clubs and events and he spent a lot of tie studying the leds and i know the mein wavelenghts u need for the plant....and jep lams german mate over here :D and heres the link to the ones i will get btw for all who know bout par they got ; Par Value(300mm): 3373.8Umol http://www.ebay.com/itm/Newest-Model-260w-LED-Grow-Light-Super-Bright-US-Seller-Warranty-/230887471351?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c1f738f7

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Alex this seems to be much your thing, whilst i was studying Enviromental sciences 5 years ago and biology was part of the sylabus, it was far from being my best subject. I am much more a geographer.

I have had a look round and have felt my hemispheres squeaking together as i was reading articles on the subject. lmao

From what i could glean, magnesium is highly mobile in cation exchange and an important co-enzme, so when the atp is used it becomes adp.

Some of the atp produced in the chloroplasts is consumed in the calvin cycle, which produces triose sugars.

To recharge the adp back into atp another phosphate need to be added with the help of the magnesium as a co-enzyme.

Does this sound right to you ?? As i said it not really my bag.

If it does sound right, this would mean as the rate of photosynthesis is increased some of the magnesium is lost through cation exchange and is use in the production of triose sugars in the calvin cycle.

The magnesium then need to be replaced up take from the soil via the roots or the plant will become necrotic and start to yellow and lose leaves if the defficiency becomes to severe.

References I have used

Magnesium

Magnesium is an important co-enzyme in many of the reactions of photosynthesis. In addition, a large amount of magnesium, up to ten percent of total plant magnesium, is located in chlorophyll molecules. Obviously, if chlorophyll concentrations drop, photosynthesis rates will likely do the same. copied and pasted from http://florahydroponics.com/photosynthesis.aspx

When ATP is used, it becomes ADP or Adenine Di-Phosphate. Adding another phosphate will "recharge" ATP. copied and pasted from http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_is_the_ATP_molecule_like_a_rechargeable_battery

Magnesium is the central atom of the chlorophyll molecule. It also is an important co-enzyme. It is very mobile in plants as a cation. copied and pasted from - http://www.yale.edu/fes519b/pitchpine/elements.html#Mg

I wonder Alex if you would do a little research for us and bring us the results.

Any way of increasing our understanding of the subject would be grately recieved and would certainly benefit our knowledge base here in the forums.

This is not my place of expertise and you seem to have a good understanding of biological processes.

I like to learn new things and if you could help me understand these process and help me learn new things that i can then pass on to others i would be very grateful.

I am generally comfortable with my understanding of the knowledge i post as i have a broad understanding on many topics, although often i am only the person who searches for the knowledge and brings it back here to SH. I always state where the knowledge was found, i'm not gonna take credit for other peoples work.

This interesting question you have brought up needs your clarification, can you help?

Peace bro

Lams

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Strain head my friend, you say you have a question, then just make an opinionated statement , this is pure conjecture and not a question.

If you want to ask me a question please make it an obvious question, possibly bullet point it, so it can be seen as such and end it with a question mark at the end.

I am always happy to answer a question that someone asks, if it will help them, rather than as a point of who know more than the other.

I checked core light foot print before i bought my LED and i covers the area i use by using lenses.

I have never owned a plasma induction light ,although i have looked in to them and have consequently decided "I" don't think they are good enough.

I have also looked in to Ceramic Metal Halides these lights do produce a good intensity of light. The Sunpulse lamps come in a good variety of colours in different parts of the spectrum and the Philips retro white CMH is a good full spectrun bulb.

Any light that gives out any UVB I always add that protection should be used , such as covering your skin and wearing eye protection. Having said this anyone staring directly at very bright light, shouldn't, it won't do you any good.

Your personal opinion about who makes the only good LED is pure conjecture. I don't say what you should believe, I also don't have to agree with it either. It just comes across as arogant and with out substance.

Chill out my man, it is not a competion to see who know what or who knows the most, you'll just alienate yourself for not being able to understand that not everyone has the same point of view.

The hiding spectrum of LED is so last year, any good LED manufatuer can take apart a competitor light and measure the nm rage of each LED,there is much more tech involved these days than just LED spectra.

I have never said anything about if I could build a great LED light though there are people who do and i have shown interest in that.

Cidly do make some nice lights and I have also said that in these forums.

As for LED being a joke in your eyes, then that is your opinion and your welcome to it.

Honestly and this is my opinion, it would be helpful if you dial back your arguments it is very tiring to have to deal with someone who so opinionated that they are unable to be reasonable and more sedate.

If you want to keep nipping at my ankles i will just ignore you, I spend alot of my time trying to help other people and don't have time to spare arguing.

I am happy to admit i don't know everything and I am also happy to admit when i am wrong , can the same be said for you?

I am a brother to all members of strain hunters, I would like us to be friends, but I need to know you can be courtious and considerate.

Please also make sure if you gonna quote someone, that your quote is correct otherwise it is libleous and I won't put up with that.

I wish you peace

Lams

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Sry to Strainhead but this ones usingthe older lenses x2 generation and they are way to expensive.... what can be batter as practical results?? and i fllowed the whole grow cause im almost everyday at his house. im defo gonna check out this panels if they aint the shit lol in germany they pay high prices for leds so resell it again after trying......

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  • 2 months later...

The topic of LED lighting has got the team at Dutch Passion thinking. Seymour’s original 350 gram from an Automazar was done with 290 watts of power and yet it looked like the result of 600W or possibly even 1000w. I am sure much of this is to do with the fact that the LED’s produce only the light the plant needs with none of the green and yellow ‘less useful’ wavelengths. So 290W of LED light might need say 600w of HPS to produce. I would like to see more from the LED manufacturers on this as they seem to be on the crest of a wave. The only stumbling block will be the price which will deter most customers, even those that have been convinced by thetechnology.

One other important aspect of LED is the fact that the light comes evenly from a panel of 3 feet x 3 feet. Or 1m x 1m for us Europeans. The effect of that is a more even spread of light rather than a
single point source
as you have with a traditional HPS Bulb. LED is similar in concept to the ‘travelling light’, or HPS on a rail where the light rolls from one side of the room to the other ensuring that all plants get some direct light at some point. The problem with the travelling light technique is that for a lot of the time the bud is getting low light. The idea of spreading that illumination out,a s the LED panel does, results in all the plants is getting a fair share of light all the time And all the light the plant does get is rich in the most useful wavelengths. It is a dream scenario for the plant and perhaps that alters the plants feed requirements. It seems to increase the requirement for calcium and magnesium and I am sure that is key to understanding what it is that LED does differently.

Here is an initial theory on why
deficiencies are seen. Magnesium is used in several ways, it is also needed as part of the chlorophyll molecule itself. Could it be that LED grown plants use extra Magnesium to produce extra chlorophyll to deal with the increased levels of useful light? I don’t know, but it is a fair question to ask.

is used in different ways by the plants but one way is in cell walls and membranes. It is used in enzymes and transporting of other nutrients. Somehow more of this is going on.

So my thoughts are along several different lines right now.

LED is now more effective ‘watt for watt’ than HPS. The poor public image of LED is down to some early exaggerated claims that never survived public scrutiny. But LED technology has really moved on in the last year or so.

I think the LED market will really takeoff when there is a bit more serious competition.
LED look like they could give HPS a serious run for it’s money in coming years but prices will have to drop. I can’t believe that the LED manufacture can be so expensive, a few cents each but surely not
too
much when LED’s are being produced by the million in the Far East. And assembly of the components is something the Chinese can do with their eyes shut for a fraction of the price we can achieve in the west. So $1,000 or more for a 300 watt LED device seems excessive. Get the price down to $300-$400 and hardened HPS devotees will buy them. In my opinion LED prices are going to have to soften in order to get mass market appeal. At current prices I think 90% of customers will never be able to justify it even though they might love to have one.

But technically they are really moving LEDalong. It makes me wonder where LED light performance might be in a few years time. For those that worry about heat signatures and energy consumption then LED has obvious attractions. The light is all fully usable by the plant and it is delivered from an evenly lit panel rather than a single point. So all the plant surface area can join in the photosynthetic fun.

I have one other point to make about LED. By my reckoning some 40% of available surface area on the panel is not used. I am sure there is a reason for this such as limits in soldering density, or something even sillier reason such as the current factory only make circular units. But I am sure that these problems could be overcome. LED panels could be made brighter by filling some of the ‘dead space’ on the panel with more LED’s. And like I said, I really can’t believe the LED’s themselves can cost that much. We have seen LED’s move from 1 watt to 3 watts in the last couple of years. What happens when they find a way to mass produce a 5W or even a 7W version? And prices will drop like they do for everything else that is mass-producible. I remember being mesmerised by the first electronic calculator I saw, ‘could I ever afford one of my own?’ I wondered. And barely a decade later you were getting them for free when you filled up your car with gas.

I think we need to ask the nutrient manufacturers how they need to reformulate their products to allow for the new feeding requirements of the plants and I will check around the Dutch Passion office to see if we have any contacts and let you know. I am sure I can initiate some cooperation from my mineralised brothers in the nutrient world. I will see if I can get them to register onsite and give us their views.

I think LED will really take off. Right now it is still in the stage of the ‘early adopter’ . It will become a mainstream technology but manufacturers will first face up to a transition from ‘premium market’ to ‘mass market’ and change profit expectations for it to happen.

And Seymour, we would truly love to see you scrog a couple of AutoMazars, let me know if you are serious about that,perhaps after this grow. If you are serious,we will get you some seeds and run a ‘guess the yield’ contest. But I would go for both LED panels (or evenbetter 2x penetrator pro’s !) rather than one. Make it spectacular !

The plant continues to look excellent Seymour, how much is she drinking each day ? I wondered whether there was a hint of nutrient burn at the tips of the leaves on one shot? As you say, she might need another week before the PK14 boost. I am amazed she is at an EC of 1.6 when the Mazar would only take an EC of 1.0 under the same conditions.

You are doing great mate

This post was originally posted by "Dutchpassiontony
" on the Autoflower network

Interesting stuff , what does the future hold? Will we see LED targeted plant foods & who will be the first to formulate them.

The seymore reffered to in the start of this post is a guy called "Seymore-buds" he grew 350g with 290W of led, thats over a gram per Watt. Comparable to what you can expect with an hps! He was growing "Auto Mzaar" from Dutch Passion.

Auto's are now starting to achieve more acceptable weights and highs and LED getting better all the time, producing som fine crops. All we need now is for LED to drop in price,I'm guessing in the next few year we will see that happen.

Much love Lamsbread

Lambsbread, I can offer you some insight into LEDs and nutrient consumption that you have touched on in this post. In the case of Magnum (I can't speak for any other manufacturers), our LED grow lights offer the exact spectrum required for the production of photosynthesis along with a couple of other spectrums used to manipulate mother nature. This causes 2 distinctly LED plant characteristics to occur. The first being a dramatic increase in nutrient consumption over the HID counterpart. Consider this simple fact, every nutrient manufacturer out there has a predetermined recipe printed on their packaging that reflects research and development arrived at while testing and developing their respective products under HID lighting situations. It is a well known fact that HID is roughly 15% efficient in terms of plant absorption, it is also a well known fact that our LED spectrum (aside from the UV and IR spectrums used to manipulate mother nature) is 100% absorbed by the plant. In our research we have found that offering up the exact recipe for photosynthesis allows the plant to absorb upwards of 40% additional nutrients over HID. This was simply determined by measuring the runoff during the "water days" between feeding. Simple yes, but never considered until this new technology started to evolve. We found the runoff in our test plants under LED had a significantly less ppm over the HID test plants. This probably explains why a lot of the initial LED purchasers had lighter yields over what they were used to when running HID and in turn gave LED a bad rap in the beginning. The second LED characteristic, Calcium and Magnesium deficiencies. The introduction of UV spectrum causes the plant to believe that it is under environmental distress from harmful rays when in fact the UV light only borders on the harmful side (harmful occurring sub 400nm). What this does is basically tricks mother nature and the plants reaction to the abnormally high UV light levels is to over produce trichomes to filter out these potentially harmful rays and in turn this causes a huge increase in the demand for both calcium and magnesium. Who would have thought that light engineering the perfect plant would have been possible just a few years ago! Of course this is merely touching on the topic and there are many additional things that we have discovered throughout our 6 years of dedicated research on the quest for producing the highest grade medical bud on the planet but hopefully this adds to your understanding on why LED requires additional nutrients and additional supplements. If you have any questions I am more than happy to share my knowledge. Take care :)

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My 2 cents - LEDs do work, had excellent results off the 'Mothership 540w' by Hidhut, pretty much indentical yeilds to a 600w sodium but way less heat created and energy used. Also had pleasing results with a UK independent manufactor doing a reverse enguineered 400w version.

Reasonable rule of thumb - if it costs around $1000 it'll be top class, if it costs around $100 it'll be shit.

Finally, tried 2 Gravita 300w plasma lighs too, they are excellent for vegging but very poor for flowering; resulting with tall, stringy, low yeilding plants. (While the plants next to them under LED and fed by the same DWC system did mavellously well!)

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