How much supplementary LED to HPS need my plants?

[Guscode]

olà companeros,

last week i've got a talk with Franco and among other topics we've talk about the benefit of LEDs. In his opinion only LEDs are no viable way to produce buds that we want. But the diversified light spectrum of LEDs encrease the complexety of terpens, when we use it as an addition to the unbeatable HPS Power. My question is, how much LED light i need to have a noticeable effekt for my Ladies? I'm a small grower, just to ensure my own consumption, and grow in a Home Box XS (60x60x160) with 250W HPS in soil.

THX for all advices dudes 'n cheers

gus

[lamsbread]

LED lights are often misquoted, the reason for this is the advancement of the technology is moving very fast. An opinion which may have beenen correct 6 months a go, may be outdated today. If you take your eye off the ball you might not see what is happening under your nose. It entirely depends which LED light is bought and wether it is the latest tech. Here is a video of a 200w LED light with 3W diodes, 11 wavelengths of light and diamond lenses from - advancedled lights It can grow buds! http://www.advancedledlights.com based in USA

This grow was done in a 60cm x 60 cm tent, using only the led.

If you live in the UK then have a look at Elitegrow - https://www.elitegrow.co.uk/ The 100W model would probably be a good compliment to you 250W HID.

Peace

Lams

[Guscode]

Wow! This plant is pretty impressive...i think i have to evaluate my thoughts about it. Do you think that this acquisition worth it for my small growing style?

Edit: THX dude! Your EliteGrow advice was fabulous...right now i've ordered the 100W panel. 200€ are a pretty cheap i think. When i've heard about something,which is a benefit for my Ladies, i has to have it!

[lamsbread]

Congrats man

The Light you have ordered is full spectrum, 11 wavelengths inc uv & IR and will certainly fill out the light spectrum & compliment your HPS.

I think this will definately bennefit your grow, its wave lengths cover both Chlorophyll peaks a & b as well as Carotenoids ,Phycoerythrin & Phycocyanin.

It also cover the Emerson Effect (copied and pasted from "The Dictionary of Botany")

Emerson effect

(enhancement effect) The observation (made by Robert Emerson in 1957) that photosynthesis, which proceeds very slowly using light of 700 nm wavelength, can be greatly increased when chloroplasts are also illuminated with light of shorter wavelength (650 nm). This was a surprising observation as it was then thought that light absorbed by the chlorophylls and other pigments was all passed on to a small percentage of chlorophyll a molecules (the energy trap) absorbing at 700 nm. This and later work indicated a second energy trap absorbing at 680 nm.

Photo systems I & II

(pigment systems I and II, PSI and PSII) Two photochemical systems containing photosynthetic and accessory pigments and electron carriers that operate in sequence to perform the two light reactions of photosynthesis and so bring about photophosphorylation and reduction of NADP⁺ (see diagram). PSII contains chlorophyll a (*P680 ) that absorbs light of 684 nm wavelength most efficiently. When activated by light it produces a strong oxidant that oxidizes water to oxygen, hydrogen ions, and electrons. The electrons are transferred via a primary electron acceptor (possibly C550) and plastoquinone and the cytochrome chain to PSI. The energy released when each electron is transferred is used to transform a molecule of ADP to ATP. PSI contains chlorophyll a (*P700 ) that absorbs light of 700 nm wavelength most efficiently. When P700 is activated a strong reductant is produced that reduces NADP⁺ to NADPH.

Long story short some of the chemical processes with in the plant require light in two different parts of the spectrum to be able to produce optimum efficiency.

Another benefit with the LED you have ordered is you can use the veg mode for seedling and young plant without worring about harsh heat from HID and the fact it provides light in the blue spectrum.

75cm is a good height to hang your light.

Peace

Lams

[Dust]

well i agree that that plant look nice Lamsbread, but believe me i've seen muuuuch bigger in 60 rooms of a friend with 250w HPS in it, look at Inzion Grow for example i believe his room is around those size (60 or 80), and yet i've never seen LED achieve plants as beautiful as his, EXCEPT when it is completed with HID like a lot of people state.

But don't get me wrong, i don't deny the fact that the LED are full of potency and they get better everytime i hear of them they are just not ready despite everything we see and 200€ for a 100w panel indeed is pretty cheap glad to see it finaly started to go down a little

[lamsbread]

@ Dust - Hey bro , i checked out "Inzion's" grows, checked them all out back to 2011 all his grows were 400W , so it no wonder they were nice grows.

I think the video i posted looks good for 200W and if the tech keeps getting better and prices keep coming down, we will reach a stage where there will no longer be any doubt.

There are some new LED's on the market with intergrated arrays (50 diodes with a choice of wavelengths all on one chip) with one large refocus lens on each array.

The means better colour blending of the light, combined with good penetration. Currently these lights have 4 intergrated arrays combined with 4 lenses (1 lens per array). These lights go from 200W to 480W and I think are the future of LED.

Since i first posted about LED here on Strain Hunters LED lights have gone from strength to strength to strength and I'm not seeing it slowing down.

In the past it was a bit of a lottery when buying one (in the days of cheap rip off ufo's), since then the tech has improved. At the time buyers had to try and understand what to buy and do research to understand what to look for in a light, this is still true to some extent.

I don't think it will be long before LED's will be doing such a good job, people will just know from grows on various forums which one to buy, because they can see for themselves which ones performed so well.

Give it a bit more time and my faith will be understood , but i won't promise i won't tell you "I told you so". jeje

The LED light revolution hasn't reached the top of it's game yet, the reason prices still remain at elevated levels (although they are coming down all the time) is because there is more improvement to be made.By which I mean new improved models keep coming out, keeping prices bouyant.

Once LED produce results that no one can argue with and the market becomes saturated because everyone is buying them, the prices will become very agreeable due to market forces.

This will be especially true with the intergrated arrays just using 4 chips,a couple of drivers & couple of fans, plus the housing, this will make manufacturing them cheaper and also reduce weight making them cheaper to ship.

I realise not everyone sees the future the same way as i do,or such faith in LED's, but i do believe what i say, only time will tell if i have been misguided in my opinions.

We are seeing more and more LED's popping up on the forums, I don't think this will decrease, one thing we do know is they do compliment HID's and have awesome veg, now it's up to the new generation of LED lights to show they will give good bud too.

Peace bro

Lams

[oldemarine]

Lamsbread, If people are looking for ideal light I think the Island of Hawaii at about 2,000-4,000 feet of elevation is where the best conditions are located. We also have led systems on the rise because of the cost of electric power here on the Islands is the highest in the USA.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/hawaiis-most-beautiful-garage-undergoes-led-lighting-retrofit-164021786.html

[lamsbread]

Nice article old marine

Even here in the UK some of our street lighting is going LED and will be dimmable due to the amount of traffic going by.

Something we will see more of i think, energy prices aint gonna go down, not unless we get more nuke power or some one works out cold fussion.

Renewable energy souces may be coming online more, but we "the human race" are using more power than is reaally viable, in the long run we need to reduce consumption or find other ways of producing energy.

I wonder if you can tell me if there is Geothermal energy generation in Hawaii, like they have in Iceland.

I know that Iceland produce a huge amount of energy throuh geothermal springs. I guess that Hawaii doesnt have enough hot water to produce enegy from, but surely by having constant volcanic activity,there must be some way of utilizing it.

Peace bro

Lams

[oldemarine]

Lamsbread, We have a private corporation producing 38 megawatts of geothermal electricity on the Island of Hawaii now and they are looking to expand output again with a bidding process. Here is a video about this issue here in Hawaii as it is controversial as some people got upset about 24 hour drilling and want to reduce it to daylight hours only. This activity is at the East Rift Zone near Pahoa (the Hawaiian's have nicknamed "Hippie Town" for it's interesting mix of people.)

[MissKittyKat]

So the original question is if the LED will add any value to your crop that currently has an HPS. The answer is yes it will. As Franco mentioned you will see a difference in the taste and the complexity. That is correct. I also use a 1000w Super HPS with 90w LED ufo full spectrum. I have noticed a difference in veg, and bloom. The density, color, smell, taste, potency, etc is all enchanced. Some strains repsond better then others and they are all different in what happens. Some get a really nice taste and others will get bigger! Some will get very dense and others will smell more! So adding light will alsways help when you have diverse light sources.

[Levente]

Additional light is always benefitial till about 1200W/m2, specially with wider spectrum. The only question if it worth it... (over a certain amount the plants use the light less efficient as all u know!) Like for a 1000 W hps, u can add 1-200W extra led-light, and it may worth it, but i doubt any more would have a point... In case someone uses a 4-600 W Hps, and thinking of getting more light, he better change to a 1000 W hps than adding cfls, or expensive leds, unless has to deal with heat issues... Leds, and cfls are great, but not for flowering alone, and i belive the time of leds will come, but we are not yet there, as Franco said...

[lamsbread]

When it comes to flowering alone with LED some of the newer lights are doing the do.

Please check out this video which was using 200W LED for the first 7 weeks and for the last 2 weeks using a 330W led.

I posted a video earlier in this thread a grow which used only a 200W LED and I think you will agree they are some nice buds.

I am awaiting his next grow which will be 330W all the way through and I am expecting something pretty good.

One thing to remember is unless you research what LED lights are out there, an opinion may be flawed for lack of industry knowledge.

LED advancement, as I have mentioned before is moving at such a pace, that quotes and opinions need to be checked by date. What may have been true 6 months ago, may be completely obsolete today.

We are at that time where LED is becoming a true reality, prices are much more reasonable, prices are dropping,although they might not be dropping as fast as people want. As long as the LED tech is still advancing, prices will remain bouyant, as I have mentioned before.

Here is the video

Peace

Lams

[Levente]

I hope u will show us a convincing grow on reasonable price! I let u do this work, i am cheap for this... But finally they will get there i am sure! Just not yet...

[F.V.K]

save your money and by a cheep uv bulb and get same result of added resin without the huge cost of a week led. they havent chaned led much since day one in the 60`s. just the lenses ad that isnt heping increase their lacking penetration power. lighting science law has shown led dont do as they cliam since the beginnig as well. more to growin than just colours. thiers reason big grows dont use them

[Dust]

science has shown it will probably never get the same efficiency as HID by it's own, but it has also proved that if you had both of those, HID + LED you will then get probably the best results you can achieve in indoor. For example look at what our Official photographer Mr.X is doing with his LED which are suposed to be real good LED all made in Europe, and you can't really deny it has a good effect on them ^^

But tho i agree on the fact that probably 95% of the led on the market are maybe not ready for a good use for indoor growing by itself and only doing wrong to the LED reputation

Let's cross our fingers and hope someone will prove we are wrong in the coming years

[F.V.K]

point is the extra goo is made by the uv in them..why spend hundreds to get a uv when we can spend about 20 buck and have an all uv bulb and do the same thing. the uv lightin is whats adding goo.not the tiny led lighting

[Dust]

nah can't agree many of the LED system we see still don't have UV yet incorporated, well i don't think or remember about seeing that much of it at least lol ^^

[F.V.K]

well its what they push alot of info for now...over here anyways. they always seemed to push the uv info and how great the colour is but always side step abot the week utputs tha make them the failure theyve been.

[lamsbread]

The title of this thread is "How much supplementary LED to HPS need my plants?".

As Dust stated MrX. has some awesome results using both LED and HPS.

I would agree that is you wanted to Use UV light to increase resin production, A UVB florescent tube would be advantageous, there is a thread about it.

I have provided Videos showing LED can produce good buds, the tech has improved when it comes to led.

when it comes to colours, PAR plays a massive part in how a plant grows, HPS,MH,CMH,LEP,CFL & LED all can grow buds, but as time marches on electricity prices will keep rising , this isn't gonna stop and a light that wastes a massive amount of the power it draws, will stop being an option in the future.

LED will keep advancing and improving weather science says this or that is not an issue, many things which were once science fiction are now science fact.

There are also commercial grows on the interweb showing large scale grows using LED, one problem is large scale grows are often kept undercover so we don't see many of them.

I have followed the progress of LED grow lights and believe me they have come on leaps and bounds and they don't seem ready to stop improving the tech any time soon.

I remember when Auto cannabis seeds first came on the scene with Lowryder , there were so many doubters and haters, bitching this and that and a lot of the time just repeating what others had said with out trying them for themselves.

A parrot can be taught to speak, but has no idea what it says.

"who is the bigger fool, the fool or the fool that follows the fool". Ben Kinobe

I bought some Lowryder seeds when they came out and yes they weren't the best weed i'd smoked, but I did see the potential in them. Auto's now have many strains bought by thousands of people,strains such as super criticle auto by Greenhouse seeds which can certainly pack a punch.

Auto seeds are now produced by many seed companies in a market worth millions and are getting better everyday.

I see the same potential with LED grow lights and in time I believe so will you, as auto strains will continue to improve , so I believe will LED lights.

Peace

Lams

[F.V.K]

their isnt cost savings to using led..a watt is a watt and is how cost is calculated. so a 400 watt led cost exact same as a 400 watt hps, expcet way way less output from the led, yes colour is important, i didnt mean it wasnt at all, but if theirs no penrtating power then all the best colours and efficicny doesnt mean anything. the light wont reach far if not. thats the part led has side stepped since trying to bring them to the growing area. and the part of lighting science that shows they dot perform as claimed.

all this cost savings is the same thing the cfl market did when they tried coming into the growing area to. they are reffering to ambiant lighting diff. like how cfl sells the idea that 42 watts is equal to 150 watt. in ambant light not pentratin light like we use. that lights the room for eye sight, not to pentrate deep in a plant. so led cliams is cheeper on how they compae a lwer watt to a higher one. of course its cheeper but your also loosing out to.

theres a diff between the scientific theory and law that im reffering to. law cant be beat. theory can. the only large scale grows i see are done b the salesmen or a gys gettin free ear...been there. i to have followed it..and worked in the bizz selling to in my past...and thiers stil tons of doubters for them autos to., over here nobody touches that stuff either. not sure what the auto had to do with this??

[lamsbread]

a Watt is a Watt no doubt, it is how it is put to work that matters. if a Watt is converted to heat then it is lost energy as far as photosynthesis is concerned.

Please supply the scientific data which you have read and ,shows the short comings of LED, please make it a recent report.

Please where ever possible please supply a report that shows the the brand and model of the LED,

Type of diodes used and the manufacturer.

Power of Diodes.

single or multi chip or integrated array,

MW the Diodes are powered at.

Lenses used.

Wavelengths used.

Does it have UV/IR.

PAR readings.

Weather the Emerson effect is used.

Who wrote the report,

When they wrote it.

Where it can be found on the internet,

What scientific journals it has been published in.

If it is science, it will have to be able to stand up to scrutiny.

here are some you tube links you might like to peruse at your leisure

You might also like to have a look at the Tester section of the forum where you can see some of Greenhouse Seeds autos form seed to harvest plus smoke reports.

The point I was making about autos was in when they were first introduced many people slagged them off. The same goes for LED grow lights many people have slagged them off too. Sure both autos and LED may have not been that great in the past, but massive improvements have been made to both.

when people keep using the same arguments over and over again, with out any knowledge of the improvements that have been made it shows a lack of research,which is mainly down to them having inaccurate preconceptions based on other peoples outdated or uniformed opinions.

There is a lot of machismo when it comes to weed growers, thankfully that is changing, but attitudes where people who think they have all the answers is so yesteryear.

The modern day grower is all about learning to grow better weed with new techniques, equipment and strains, always willing to find out how to improve their knowledge and understanding all things cannabis.

To quote you "over here nobody touches that stuff..." then how can anybody know what is or what isn't where autos are concerned.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same attitude didn't prevail when it comes to LED too.

Which boils down to (IMHO) a bunch of men showing off to each other & trying to being manly & trying showing each other who has the biggest set of balls. YAWN.

I currently have a LED grow going , your more than welcome to follow it, as they say proof is in the pudding, you never know one of us may even end up eating a piece of humble pie.

I wish you all the best

Peace

Lams

[F.V.K]

weather light turns to heat or not the cost remains the same.

the scientific data is called inverse square law..how light falls over duatsnce has shown they dont work in our field since many many years ago and nothin has shown it wrong yet or would change how the whole world thinks on light and everyone would know about the new discovery..1 foot away is 25% the intensity and intensity is huge for what we do, cant get them colours to the plant without intencity, and theres where they have always fallen to hid

se you guys keep talking about the led itslef and this is about lighting basics. has nothing to do with type of light. its how week of output they are, all the focus is around colors. the cost to buy and euqal the outputs of a hid dont make them worthy

ok on the auto well people still slag them off as they should. they are also week and mostly new guys buy them along with led.

people keep using the same arguement over and over on led cause you led salemen keep avoiding the intencity they lack and is the whole reason they dont work as well as cliamed

you seem to have drifted away from the subject to insult, ill stop exposing the truth on led

[F.V.K]

you forgot i posted i worked in the bzz.i know the lies. was paid to pass them on. is why i quit. not a disshonest salesman

[Pi2]

I think we need to use this same power as HPS but we will get better spectrum of light from LED.

LED grow: https://www.icmag.co...=3781374&page=3

Display mode set as-Hybrid Mode

[F.V.K]

agreed the efficiency of led for the colour to outputs is way better..but again its the lacking otput. like you said to bad they ant have similar or even close outpts as hid lights do.