MYCORRHIZAE do we need to ad some carbs?

[Newfriend]

Have just watered my plants with Great White MYCORRHIZAE and water at EC0.51 PH 6.0.

I am using GHS Powder Feed.

I have read in a few places that the Mycorrhizae need some cargs (Sugar) to feed on?

Is there enough carbs in the PF?

Appreciate any advice on the PF and Carb. additives.

I just don't want to overpower (Feed) my plants.

THanks

[lamsbread]

Molasses is great carbs for feeding mycorrhizae.

Mycorrhizae like to live on the plant roots where they make nutrient in the soil more available and easier for the plant to uptake.

In return the plant gives the mycorrhizae plant sugars and the mycorrhizae colony grows and multiplies.

By adding mycorrhizae it promotes groot growth and helps create a secondary root system that will last the life time of the plant.

By adding carbs it will help the colony of mycorrhizae to grow, whilst the root system is still small and no able to support a large colony of mycorrhizae.

Having a good colony of mycorrhizae in you soil will also benefit your soil because the mycorrhizae will fight off pathenogens in the soil that might attack the plant.

Molasses is also benefical as it contains small amount of Magnesium and is good food for the plant especially when flowering and boost resin production.

10ml - 15ml in 5 litres is a good amount. Use some warm water to dissolve the molasses and top up with tepid water so as not to shock your plant with icy cold water.

Peace

Lams

[Newfriend]

Hi Lams

Many thanks for all that great info:

Would you add Molasses every feeding?

I was planning on adding Great White MYCORRHIZAE once more in say week 3 of bloom.

I will add Mokasses next feeding and then once more is say week 3 of bloom with the Mycorrhizae.

I am getting from your info that I should add Molasses every feeding, is that right?

Again Thanks

[lamsbread]

Once past the seedling stage once a week should be fine..

Starting with 10ml (2 teaspoons) per 5 litres ,while in veg, going up to 15ml (3 teaspoons) per 5 liters in flower.

You shouldn't need to add more mycorrhizae once the soil and roots have been inoculated.

The mycorrhizae should have formed a nice colony and be living symbiotically on the roots and multiplying nicely on their own.

Adding some more won't hurt, but i don't see it a necessary.

If you packet instructions advise you add more then follow the advice on the pack.

Organic nutrients such as Biobizz Grow, are made from what is effectively a molasses base.

Regular feeding of molasses is fine after the seedling stage, though you may want to dial back the molasses a bit if using a molasses based feed such as Biobizz Grow in the veg period.

Peace

Lams

[oldemarine]

Lamsbread, Did you know high phorphorus levels wipe out your myco's? The molasses may do little good if your P levels are too high. Check this research out that Sunshine has done with years of testing on the soiless substrates they sell.

http://www.sunshineadvanced.com/sunshine-advanced-ultra-coir-tech-talk

[Newfriend]

Interesting Oldmarine

Should be ok with PF short flower at N-P-K-Mg: 16+6+26+(2)

as it has less than 10 P

Thanks for the link and info

[lamsbread]

Thanks for the info oldmarine. I did read the info when you posted it the other day in another one of Newfreinds mycorrhizae threads.

I'll post the info from your link so as to make it clear to other readers -

5. So I need to use a low phosphorus feed?

That is correct. While the mycorrhizae are growing along with your plant, remember to use a feed containing less than 10% phosphorus. Mycorrhizae will not be active in soils with higher phosphorus levels. Look for a fertilizer where the second number is less than 10, such as 20-9-20.

The main problem with Phosphourus will come from the nutrients used, rather than the molasses.

It has to be said that any additional nutrient values should be factored in when you feed you plants.

I have provided the Phosphorus percentage of the various types of molasses available, the main one to look at is the cane molasses which is the most popular/available and is the main source of blackstrap molasses. Biobizz Grow uses beet molasses.

As you can see the percentage of phosphorus is very low, the highest percentage is with citrus molasses which is 0.15%

• Phosphorus - cane - 0.08%
  
• Phosphorus - beet - 0.03%
  
• Phosphorus - citrus - 0.15%
  
• Phosphorus - extract - 0.05%
  
• Phosphorus - starch - 0.2%
  

copied from - http://rcrec-ona.ifa...iderations..pdf

The full composition of the various molasses's can be found on the pdf.

Thanks for sharing the Phosphorus info oldmarine, it is useful reading, I was not aware of the the Phosphorus and mycorrhizae interaction before.

You always find interesting stuff for us to read, I look forward to reading more in the future, thanks buddy

Peace

Lams

[oldemarine]

Aloha Lamsbread, When Sunshine did the original work on the mycos it was with peat moss in their soiless mixes and they came up with over 20 PPM (.65 mMol/L) Phosphorus had a negative effect. I was using phosphoric acid at the time and switched to nitric acid to bring the pH down in the veg stage and sulphuric acid in the bloom. Looking at most bloom formulas on the market today the P levels are not compatable with mycos. New formulas that seem to be on target with low levels of P are Osmocotes new 12-7-18 (8 to 12 week) slow release Bloom, and Jacks Professional 16-4-17 with 21% NH4 Herb formula along with Arjan's & Franco's Indica & Hybrids Powderfeeding formulas. Check out the new micro prills in the Osmocote Bloom.

http://www.everris.com/Home/Ornamental-Horticulture/Products/Product.aspx/Specialty-Fertilizers/CRF/Osmocote/Osmocote-Bloom/87390225

[Newfriend]

Thank you both very much, you break it down, so that a beginner can understand.

[oldemarine]

Interesting Oldmarine

Should be ok with PF short flower at N-P-K-Mg: 16+6+26+(2)

as it has less than 10 P

Thanks for the link and info

Aloha Newfriend , Using the 16-6-26 at 1 gram per liter gives you 160 PPM Nitrogen, 26 PPM Phosphorous, 216 PPM Potassium, 20 PPM Magnesium. Then add what is in your water.

[Newfriend]

Hi Oldmarine

I won't even ask how to figure that, but its pretty close.

My water is 0.51EC x 500 = 255 + 160 + 26 + 216 + 20 = 677/500 = 1.354EC

My actual EC reading was 1.49

Might have been the AN ph down that raised it a bit.

Thanks.

PS"How are things in Hawaii?

I was there in the military when it became a State in 69.

Had a great time at Fort Derusie (Not sure of the spelling)

[Dust]

Tell me guys was wondering is it really useful to use all thos funguns ad with the Powderfeeding? aren't all those bacteria more beneficial when you use organic nutrient that need to be converted by the "soil" before beeing eaten by the plant then yes i clearly see the use of those prodcts and i know they are really efficient i don't doubt on that at all!!

But i was just wondering is this really full of sense with the use of mineral nutes that are already availble in absorbable form?

I guess that one part of the answer is that the soil most of the times will always contain a little nute and life in it anyway..

So if someone has a nice answer for me i'll go to bed more clever tonight

[lamsbread]

Hey Dust

Put simply Mycorrhizae form a mass of fungal filaments called hyphae which are fungal equivalent off roots.

The hyphae are microscopic fungal filaments that are able to convert hard to absorb nutrient such as phosphorus ans other minerals and organic nutrients

.

They convert these nutrient in to a useable form by excreting enzymes, which break down the nutrient into forms which the plants can easily absorb.

The plants in return give the fungus plant sugar which the fungus can't create, due to the fact that fungi don't photosynthesize. This is a symbiotic relation ship between plant and fungi.

The mycorrhizae can also due to its small size increase the availability to uptake water by gettind into hard to reach pockets of moisture, which the plants larger roots cannot access..

Mycorrhizae are truely are an extention of a plants root system, with the added benefit of supplying hard to uptake nutrients and increased water uptake when soil conditions are dry, which means plants have a better drought tolerance.

90% of Plants have Mycorrhizal relationships, in modern day agriculture these relationships are often destroyed by soil compaction and ploughing.

It does not matter wheather you are growing organic or not, it is about available uptake of nutrient and water.

It will increase the plant efficiency to use the nutrients in the soil this to any fertilizer which includes powderfeed too.

Not matter what feed you use or type of soil/potting compost you use mycorrhizae will be a great help to the overall condition of your plants, this has been going on for millions of years, by the vast majority of plants.

Some composts go through heat sterilization , this process destroys weed seeds pathenogens which we don't want , it does however also destroy these beneficial fungi which do so much to help our plants be strong and healthy.

Yes you can grow a plant without them and some composts may have some mycorrhizae pressent, but is still lacking the diversity that will really provide the plant with maximum benefit of nutrient uptake.

Peace Lams

Here below i have copied and pasted what Wikipedia has to say which is a little drier but more scientific

A mycorrhiza (Gk. μυκός, mykós, "fungus" and ριζa, riza, "roots",^[1] pl. mycorrhizae or mycorrhizas) is a symbiotic (generally mutualistic, but occasionally weakly pathogenic) association between a fungus and the roots of a vascular plant.^[2]

In a mycorrhizal association, the fungus colonizes the host plant's roots, either intracellularly as in arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (AMF or AM), or extracellularly as in ectomycorrhizal fungi. They are an important component of soil life and soil chemistry.

Mutualist dynamics

Mycorrhizas form a mutualistic relationship with the roots of most plant species. While only a small proportion of all species has been examined, 95% of those plant families are predominantly mycorrhizal.^[3] They are named after their presence in the plant's rhizosphere (root system).

Sugar-water/mineral exchange

This mutualistic association provides the fungus with relatively constant and direct access to carbohydrates, such as glucose and sucrose.^[4]

The carbohydrates are translocated from their source (usually leaves) to root tissue and on to the plant's fungal partners.

In return, the plant gains the benefits of the mycelium's higher absorptive capacity for water and mineral nutrients due to the comparatively large surface area of mycelium: root ratio, thus improving the plant's mineral absorption capabilities.^[5]

Plant roots alone may be incapable of taking up phosphate ions that are demineralized in soils with a basic pH.

The mycelium of the mycorrhizal fungus can, however, access these phosphorus sources, and make them available to the plants they colonize.^[6] Nature, according to C.Michael Hogan, has adapted to this critical role of phosphate, by allowing many plants to recycle phosphate, without using soil as an intermediary. For example, in some dystrophic forests large amounts of phosphate are taken up by mycorrhizal hyphae acting directly on leaf litter, bypassing the need for soil uptake.^[7]

Inga alley cropping, proposed as an alternative to slash and burn rainforest destruction,^[8] relies upon Mycorrhiza within the Inga Tree root system to prevent the rain from washing phosphorus out of the soil.^[9]

Suillus tomentosus, a fungus, produces specialized structures, known as tuberculate ectomycorrhizae, with its plant host lodgepole pine (Pinus contorta var. latifolia). These structures have in turn been shown to host nitrogen fixing bacteria which contribute a significant amount of nitrogen and allow the pines to colonize nutrient-poor sites.^[10]

Mechanisms

Leccinum aurantiacum, an ectomycorrhizal fungus

The mechanisms of increased absorption are both physical and chemical. Mycorrhizal mycelia are much smaller in diameter than the smallest root, and thus can explore a greater volume of soil, providing a larger surface area for absorption.

Also, the cell membrane chemistry of fungi is different from that of plants (including organic acid excretion which aids in ion displacement^[11]). Mycorrhizas are especially beneficial for the plant partner in nutrient-poor soils.^[12]

Disease and drought resistance

Mycorrhizal plants are often more resistant to diseases, such as those caused by microbial soil-borne pathogens,^[13][14] and are also more resistant to the effects of drought.^[15][16][17]

Colonization of barren soil

Plants grown in sterile soils and growth media often perform poorly without the addition of spores or hyphae of mycorrhizal fungi to colonise the plant roots and aid in the uptake of soil mineral nutrients.^[18]

The absence of mycorrhizal fungi can also slow plant growth in early succession or on degraded landscapes.^[19] The introduction of alien mycorrhizal plants to nutrient-deficient ecosystems puts indigenous non-mycorrhizal plants at a competitive disadvantage.^[20]

Resistance to toxicity

Fungi have been found to have a protective role for plants rooted in soils with high metal concentrations, such as acidic and contaminated soils. Pine trees inoculated with Pisolithus tinctorius planted in several contaminated sites displayed high tolerance to the prevailing contaminant, survivorship and growth.

One study discovered the existence of Suillus luteus strains with varying tolerance of zinc. Another study discovered that zinc-tolerant strains of Suillus bovinus conferred resistance to plants of Pinus sylvestris. This was probably due to binding of the metal to the extramatricial mycelium of the fungus, without affecting the exchange of beneficial substances.^[20]

Occurrence of mycorrhizal associations

At around 400 million years old, the Rhynie chert contains the earliest fossil assemblage yielding plants preserved in sufficient detail to detect mycorrhizas - and they are indeed observed in the stems of Aglaophyton major.^[21]

Mycorrhizas are present in 92% of plant families studied (80% of species),^[22] with arbuscular mycorrhizas being the ancestral and predominant form,^[22] and indeed the most prevalent symbiotic association found in the plant kingdom.^[4] The structure of arbuscular mycorrhizas has been highly conserved since their first appearance in the fossil record,^[21] with both the development of ectomycorrhizas, and the loss of mycorrhizas, evolving convergently on multiple occasions.^[22]

Types of mycorrhiza

Arbuscular mycorrhizal wheat

Mycorrhizas are commonly divided into ectomycorrhizas and endomycorrhizas. The two types are differentiated by the fact that the hyphae of ectomycorrhizal fungi do not penetrate individual cells within the root, while the hyphae of endomycorrhizal fungi penetrate the cell wall and invaginate the cell membrane.

Additionally, many plants in the order Ericales form a third type, ericoid mycorrhizas, while some members of the Ericales form arbutoid and monotropoid mycorrhizas.^[23][24] All orchids are myco-heterotrophic at some stage during their lifecycle and form orchid mycorrhizas with a range of basidiomycete fungi.

Endomycorrhiza

Main article: Arbuscular mycorrhiza

Endomycorrhizas are variable and have been further classified as arbuscular, ericoid, arbutoid, monotropoid, and orchid mycorrhizas.^[25] Arbuscular mycorrhizas, or AM (formerly known as vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizas, or VAM), are mycorrhizas whose hyphae enter into the plant cells, producing structures that are either balloon-like (vesicles) or dichotomously-branching invaginations (arbuscules).

The fungal hyphae do not in fact penetrate the protoplast (i.e. the interior of the cell), but invaginate the cell membrane. The structure of the arbuscules greatly increases the contact surface area between the hypha and the cell cytoplasm to facilitate the transfer of nutrients between them.

Arbuscular mycorrhizas are formed only by fungi in the division Glomeromycota. Fossil evidence^[21] and DNA sequence analysis^[26] suggest that this mutualism appeared 400-460 million years ago, when the first plants were colonizing land. Arbuscular mycorrhizas are found in 85% of all plant families, and occur in many crop species.^[22]

The hyphae of arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi produce the glycoprotein glomalin, which may be one of the major stores of carbon in the soil. Arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi have (possibly) been asexual for many millions of years and, unusually, individuals can contain many genetically different nuclei (a phenomenon called heterokaryosis).^[27]

Ectomycorrhiza

Ectomycorrhizal beech

Ectomycorrhizas, or EcM, are typically formed between the roots of around 10% of plant families, mostly woody plants including the birch, dipterocarp, eucalyptus, oak, pine, and rose^[22] families, orchids,^[28] and fungi belonging to the Basidiomycota, Ascomycota, and Zygomycota. Some EcM fungi, such as many Leccinum and Suillus, are symbiotic with only one particular genus of plant, while other fungi, such as the Amanita, are generalists that form mycorrhizas with many different plants.^[29]

An individual tree may have 15 or more different fungal EcM partners at one time.^[30]

Thousands of ectomycorrhizal fungal species exist, hosted in over 200 genera. A recent study has permitted to conservatively estimate global ectomycorrhizal fungal species richness around 7750 species, although, on the basis of estimates of knowns and unknowns in macromycete diversity, a final estimate of ECM species richness would likely be between 20000 and 25000.^[31]

Ectomycorrhizas consist of a hyphal sheath, or mantle, covering the root tip and a Hartig net of hyphae surrounding the plant cells within the root cortex.

In some cases the hyphae may also penetrate the plant cells, in which case the mycorrhiza is called an ectendomycorrhiza. Outside the root, the fungal mycelium forms an extensive network within the soil and leaf litter.

Nutrients can be shown to move between different plants through the fungal network. Carbon has been shown to move from paper birch trees into Douglas-fir trees thereby promoting succession in ecosystems.^[32]

The ectomycorrhizal fungus Laccaria bicolor has been found to lure and kill springtails to obtain nitrogen, some of which may then be transferred to the mycorrhizal host plant. In a study by Klironomos and Hart, Eastern White Pine inoculated with L. bicolor was able to derive up to 25% of its nitrogen from springtails.^[33][34]

The first genomic sequence for a representative of symbiotic fungi, the ectomycorrhizal basidiomycete Laccaria bicolor, has been published.^[35]

An expansion of several multigene families occurred in this fungus, suggesting that adaptation to symbiosis proceeded by gene duplication.

Within lineage-specific genes those coding for symbiosis-regulated secreted proteins showed an up-regulated expression in ectomycorrhizal root tips suggesting a role in the partner communication.

Laccaria bicolor is lacking enzymes involved in the degradation of plant cell wall components (cellulose, hemicellulose, pectins and pectates), preventing the symbiont from degrading host cells during the root colonisation.

By contrast, Laccaria bicolor possesses expanded multigene families associated with hydrolysis of bacterial and microfauna polysaccharides and proteins. This genome analysis revealed the dual saprotrophic and biotrophic lifestyle of the mycorrhizal fungus that enables it to grow within both soil and living plant roots.

Ericoid mycorrhiza

An ericoid mycorrhizal fungus isolated from Woollsia pungens^[36]

Main article: Ericoid mycorrhiza

Ericoid mycorrhizas are the third of the three more ecologically important types, They have a simple intraradical (grow in cells) phase, consisting of dense coils of hyphae in the outermost layer of root cells.

There is no periradical phase and the extraradical phase consists of sparse hyphae that don't extend very far into the surrounding soil. They might form sporocarps (probably in the form of small cups), but their reproductive biology is little understood.^[23]

Ericoid mycorrhizas have also been shown to have considerable saprotrophic capabilities, which would enable plants to receive nutrients from not-yet-decomposed materials via the decomposing actions of their ericoid partners.^[37]

Discovery

Associations of fungi with the roots of plants have been known since at least the mid-19th century.

However early observers simply recorded the fact without investigating the relationships between the two organisms.^[38]

This symbiosis was studied and described by Franciszek Kamieński in 1879–1882.^[39] Further research was carried out by Albert Bernhard Frank, who introduced the term mycorrhiza 1885.^[40]

I hope you have found this interesting and informative

Peace

Lams

[oldemarine]

Dust, If you look at the labels on the Powderfeeding formulas the NH4 Nitrogen is 31% in the Indica formula, 33% in the Hybrid formula, 44% in the Sativa formula, and 45% in the Mother plants formula. This ammonical nitrogen has to work with soil microrganisms to be converted to nitrate nitrogen to be used by the plants.

[Dust]

perfect lams and older thanks for the answer guys, was a nice read lams i like the mutualistic part pretty avatar like ^^

[MissKittyKat]

great info your the best lams